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Monday, December 16th 2013, 4:10pm

Questions and feedback about Chapters Guide, TZM feedback system and RBE language format in general (is this the best place for it?)

Hi everyone!

I'm new to Linguistic Team and proofreading. It's nice to see that
people are still further developing this very potential train of thought
about RBE. :] Unfortunately as I tried to (proof) read these new
profound texts of TZM I started to wish to see use of plain language more than usually [1],[2].

Trying to proof read Finnish
version of Chapters Guide I find language quite heavy to read in over
all. And I can't understand (semantics of) some sentences meaningfully
at any language. Let me show an example from the third paragraph of
chapter 1.1. Introduction:

The manifestation of the Movement at the local community level -- its
most visible focal point to the populous -- is the global network of
local chapters worldwide.
[3] (p. 1,String 923422)

Does this sentence refer that The (local) manifestation (of the
Movement) is the global network of local chapters worldwide? If so then I
cannot follow that train of thought with logic I know. I would understand this
sentence much better and more unambiguously if there would be added two words like this.

The manifestation of the Movement at the local community level -- its
most visible focal point to the populous -- is part of the global
network of local chapters worldwide.


So my questions are:
  1. What should I do with other sentences like this while proofreading? (After consulting my language croup)
  2. Do most of you understand the original sentence?
  3. If so could you explain it to me too?
  4. If not could it be modified to be more understandable?
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_language
[2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_English
[3]http://pootle.linguisticteam.org/fi/tzm_…/translate.html

PS. I'm big fan of Wikipedia style referencing protocols and I would like to see RBE/TZM etc. advocates adopt similar protocols.


PPS. Cristos Pap. thought this could be the place to post these questions.

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Wednesday, December 18th 2013, 10:33pm

Hi tuohimetsa,

About the style of the guide, I guess you could write to http://www.tzmchapters.net/ as this is the originator. The style is probably a matter of personal liking, so I guess everybody has their own preference.

About the sentence itself, I understand it as the chapters being the manifestation of the movement.

Hope this helps. :)

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Thursday, December 19th 2013, 12:18pm

Hi! :)
The best place for this thread might be the help desk, indeed:
http://forum.linguisticteam.org/board217-help-desk/

I'll try to move it there.

But to your question about that text segment:
The manifestation of the Movement at the local community level -- its
most visible focal point to the populous -- is the global network of
local chapters worldwide. [3] (p. 1,String 923422)

Does this sentence refer that The (local) manifestation (of the
Movement) is the global network of local chapters worldwide?


yes.


I would understand this
sentence much better and more unambiguously if there would be added two words like this.

The manifestation of the Movement at the local community level -- its
most visible focal point to the populous -- is part of the global
network of local chapters worldwide.



You just said up there that the whole is part of the whole. There is an error in logic in the way you constructed the sentence you suggested.
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  • "tuohimetsa" started this thread

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Sunday, December 22nd 2013, 4:03pm

Quoted

Quoted

The manifestation of the Movement at the local community level -- its
most visible focal point to the populous -- is part of the global
network of local chapters worldwide.


You just said up there that the whole is part of the whole. There is an error in logic in the way you constructed the sentence you suggested.


Does then in English the expression "the manifestation of" refer to the whole thing and not just to the manifestation?

I have thought before that "the manifestation of" phrase refes just to the manifestation and not the actual thing as a whole that have been manifested.

Like "2. An indication of the existence, reality, or presence of something:
A high fever is an early manifestation of the disease."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Manifestation

My semantical understanding about this is that the fever isn't the whole disease but just sympom and thus maybe part of the disease. So then the fever as a manifestation of the disease doesn't refer to whole disease but just to the part of the disease.

And according to oxforddictionaries.com:

Quoted

Definition of manifestation in English

manifestation
Pronunciation: /ˌmanɪfɛˈsteɪʃ(ə)n/
Translate manifestation | into Italian | into Spanish
noun

an event, action, or object that clearly shows or embodies something abstract or theoretical:
the first obvious manifestations of global warming
[mass noun] the action or fact of showing something:the manifestation of anxiety over disease
a symptom of an ailment: cryptococcal meningitis was the first manifestation of AIDS in seven of twenty-seven patients
a version or incarnation of something or someone:the butterfly was one of the many manifestations of the Goddess
an appearance of a ghost or spirit: some supernatural manifestations are regarded as portents of good or evil


http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defini…q=manifestation

So according to these dictionaries I think that my interpretation from the disgussed sentence and phrase was "correct".

Nomada do u have some other dictionaries to refer which have different kind of definition to phrase "the manifestation"? (Or did I still just misunderstood also these online dictionariy definitions?)

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Monday, December 23rd 2013, 2:46pm

The manifestation of the movement
The manifestation of the Movement at the local community level -- its
most visible focal point to the populous -- is the global network of
local chapters worldwide. [3] (p. 1,String 923422)



he says that the manifestation of the Movement at the local community level is the network of chapters. Not that
the manifestation of the movement is done at the local level, through the chapters. They have different meanings.

The movement is in our minds, even that PJ wrote it with capital letters and everyone knows that it is a name of a movement, while we translate, the same way Peter does when he writes/talks about it, we must try to not get lost in that abstraction and have always in mind what it means in reality. The movement happens in our minds, in information flow and sharing understandings. It's manifestation can be done in many ways. At the local level, or the manifestation of TZM with most local focus are the chapters network.
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  • "tuohimetsa" started this thread

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Sunday, February 9th 2014, 12:22pm

he says that the manifestation of the Movement at the local community level is the network of chapters. Not that
the manifestation of the movement is done at the local level, through the chapters. They have different meanings.

The movement is in our minds, even that PJ wrote it with capital letters and everyone knows that it is a name of a movement, while we translate, the same way Peter does when he writes/talks about it, we must try to not get lost in that abstraction and have always in mind what it means in reality. The movement happens in our minds, in information flow and sharing understandings. It's manifestation can be done in many ways. At the local level, or the manifestation of TZM with most local focus are the chapters network.


Thank u! ^^

I finally found rational meaning from that sentence. I think it would be good to add your explanation into side notes of the "original text" or something for others to see. U were the first one who could explain that sentence to me.

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