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Tuesday, January 28th 2014, 5:09pm

Jacque Fresco - Animal Behavior, Instinct, Modifying Values - April 17, 2011

Hi guys,
Some things I do not understand have turned up as I go through this video, I really hope you can shed some light :)

1. The very first sentence is not very clear to me:

00:00:01,390 --> 00:00:05,280
I can't in equal time, win a debate.

2. Do you think he means (or even says) TO the middle/TO the outside? And do you think he means physiology, and not anatomy of growth? I think "anatomy" is more about the parts of the plant, and "physiology" is about processes...

00:00:17,660 --> 00:00:20,870
and then the plant bringing the sap up through the middle

00:00:21,010 --> 00:00:24,110
and the used sap going down through the outside,

00:00:24,250 --> 00:00:26,820
if I could show him the anatomy of growth, [then]

3. I also fail to understand the logic here:

00:02:44,270 --> 00:02:47,070
If they drop worms in, they reproduce.

  • here (what's the cause, they come back, because they can't count???):

00:04:53,380 --> 00:04:56,330
Some alligators swim around a lot and come back occasionally

00:04:56,470 --> 00:05:00,980
because they can't count. They don't know whether one's missing, or three're missing.

  • and here:

00:06:50,900 --> 00:06:55,570
and women pick up the baby, and it smiles, and they look at it,

00:06:55,710 --> 00:06:59,820
because the options today are less;

4. Which meaning of screwing around is used here:

1. Inf. to mess around; to waste time.
2. Inf. to play sexually; to indulge in sexual intercourse.

00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,370
and her husband is screwing around on the outside.

00:10:33,610 --> 00:10:36,020
if he's an alcoholic, screwing around;

5. What does he mean by "than"?

00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:43,920
If you're brought up that way, it's very different than hearing me speak.

6. "encounter this to be so" - encounter what to be how?

00:12:44,060 --> 00:12:48,670
I can only get to you in certain areas

00:12:48,810 --> 00:12:51,600
that are acceptable. There are other areas

00:12:51,740 --> 00:12:56,780
you wonder about and hold it in abeyance, until you encounter this to be so.

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Tuesday, January 28th 2014, 6:15pm

I'm guessing, you need to understand it to translate it. So I will answer in a fashion which helps in that sense. If you are doing the English transcription, please tell me so and I will think about it again.
That's how I understand it:

1.
I am imagining a TV debate between Fresco and some other guy. Fresco probably means "in adequate / appropriate / proper / reasonable time". The guy he is talking to has the same values as most other people in the society, so he is understood very fast. Fresco needs to explain more and his thoughts go deeper, so he would need more time to explain something. But Fresco can really explain it instead of using phrases that have no meaning if you think about it (like a politician would use them). :)

2.
It would be possible that he is saying "to" instead of "through", but I am not sure where the difference is for translating. He means, that the sap goes up inside of the plant and goes down outside of the plant. --> Refer to nomada's answer here. He seems to know more concerning that subject than I do.

A change in the plant because of growth always means a change of the anatomy too. So the process of growing changes the anatomy of the plant.
Maybe also look here: symfony exception
You need to know which parts a plant has (anatomy), before you can think of how they work (physiology).
Analogously for humans I would order the Epiphyseal plate into anatomy although it is necessary for growth: Epiphyseal plate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would translate it as anatomy and don't think it is completely wrong. Nevertheless, we can only translate what he says. ;)

3.
worms: Listen to it some seconds earlier. He wants to say, that there is a mechanism in their body for coming back and feeding their youngs which is connected to the movement of the babies. He does not tell, why exactly they are coming back. His point is just, that it happens because of some internal flow of hormones or associative memory, e.g. liking the smell of the youngs. They don't feed them, because they want their species to survive, but because by evolution (dieing out of species that did not feed their young) there were certain mechanisms established, that make them feed their babies. Another example in the same direction (maybe it is from the same video): A cat does not lick itself to make its fur clean. If you wash a cat (however you will accomplish that ^^), it will not lick itself for some days. So it's probably a good feeling for the cat to lick itself or it tastes good. By washing the cat you change the feeling and taste, so it doesn't lick itself anymore.

alligators: The alligators don't come back to protect their young. They come back because there is a mechanism which leads them to swimming to their young. It could be anything. Fresco means, that they don't think "Hey, I am counting three youngs, but an hour ago it were four. So I have to look for the fourth one now." Something triggers alligators to stay around their young, which is unconscious for them. Why has there to be something that triggers that behavior? Because alligators who did not have that died due to evolution.

human babies and their mothers: Look at the context again. Fresco wants to say, that today most women are brought up to believe, that having babies is the greatest thing in the world and that they need to achieve this, if they really want to be happy. If women were brought up with a wider range of behavior and knowledge maybe they would choose to not having babies but instead to increase their own knowledge. Somehow you can understand that phenomenon by comparing the number of children per woman of "developed countries" to the number of children per woman of "undeveloped countries" - or comparing nations with less education standards to nations with higher education standards.

4.
It can mean both. The argument is even stronger if you translate it in a sexual manner. So I would go for that, if you find a way in your language to say it without alienating too much people. :D

5.
Maybe it's a mistake in the English transcript here. By my understanding the word "then" has to be used. He wants to make the point, that you are not able to understand what Fresco says, if you were brought up in a certain way. Whatever is in your mind because of your upbringing it is determined how you understand certain words and phrases. As an example: A vegetarian or vegan will not accept or even understand any argument you are making for eating meat, even if it is based on the scientific method. The other way around, somebody who really likes to eat meat will never listen to the arguments of a vegan, because a vegan for him is just a poor misguided guy. Another example from Fresco: If you say "I do not believe in God" at a church meeting nobody will listen to you anymore.
Obviously you can understand it in two ways like I learned by nomada's post. :)
It's somehow like this: YouTube Who sees the old woman and who sees the young one? ;)

6.
As an example: He says that apples can be red, but you will not believe it, because all apples you saw all your life were green. You need to see a red apple for yourself before you understand, that it's also possible for apples to be red.

Hopefully I was able to help and cleared some things up for you. It's a very hard subject, where you need to look into the mechanistic point of view and the concepts (of TVP) very deeply to understand it. I am not sure, if my text helped, because it's very difficult to explain, but at least I tried. ;) If you have further questions, just ask. :)
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This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "ossi11111" (Jan 28th 2014, 6:57pm)


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Tuesday, January 28th 2014, 6:36pm

Before going through the issues, let me share 3 things:

- This exchange/feedback/sharing doubts between translators and also english proofreaders is very helpful so we don't translate different meanings in different languages, and also to be sure we are understanding the meanings in the video message.

- The english transcription is not in the TVP youtube channel, YouTube

and this project is not in the TVP tab of the repository wiki table either, Linguistic Team Media Center/Repository - Linguistic Team International Wiki

00:00:01,390 --> 00:00:05,280

I can't in equal time, win a debate.
I have no idea what the 'in equal time' means.

Do you think he means (or even says) TO the middle/TO the outside? And do you think he means physiology, and not anatomy of growth? I think "anatomy" is more about the parts of the plant, and "physiology" is about processes...



00:00:17,660 --> 00:00:20,870

and then the plant bringing the sap up through the middle



00:00:21,010 --> 00:00:24,110

and the used sap going down through the outside,



00:00:24,250 --> 00:00:26,820

if I could show him the anatomy of growth, [then]
He says 'through' and it is what makes sense, if you research on how the sap flows in a plant. And that going up through the middle and going down through the outside (other mechanisms should probably be there too) is part of the anatomy of growth of the plant. The way the channels are disposed, and the flow of the nutrients, is anatomy. Physiology is more about processes, all right.
3. I also fail to understand the logic here:



00:02:44,270 --> 00:02:47,070

If they drop worms in, they reproduce.
if mother bird puts worms on the moving beaks of the little birds, they will reproduce later and the species continues. Those who didn't develop that action pattern but other patterns that didn't work so well, perished.

here (what's the cause, they come back, because they can't count???):





00:04:53,380 --> 00:04:56,330

Some alligators swim around a lot and come back occasionally



00:04:56,470 --> 00:05:00,980

because they can't count. They don't know whether one's missing, or three're missing.

makes sense to me : )

and here:





00:06:50,900 --> 00:06:55,570

and women pick up the baby, and it smiles, and they look at it,



00:06:55,710 --> 00:06:59,820

because the options today are less;

The context of the 30 seconds before that are important to understand it, I think. He is explaining why women develop this well-being feelings with the hormonal activity of being pregnant and later the connection with the baby's face and all the rest. In the last string you quoted, it seems like Jacque is explaining those events in a wider context, beyond the women's body. In a larger context, these events are reinforced by culture - the idea that one should have kids - and by the conditions that society offers. In Scandinavian countries, the average age that women have the 1st baby is 35, because, for example in Sweden, people travel half the world before they go to university, which is free and you receive money to study. The options in Sweden are more than in, lets say Mexico, so in Mexico people are living more in the base line of life. There are less options so people have kids as a way of self-fulfilment.

Which meaning of screwing around is used here:



1. Inf. to mess around; to waste time.

2. Inf. to play sexually; to indulge in sexual intercourse.



00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,370

and her husband is screwing around on the outside.



00:10:33,610 --> 00:10:36,020

if he's an alcoholic, screwing around;
yup. sexual intercourse, I think.


5. What does he mean by "than"?



00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:43,920

If you're brought up that way, it's very different than hearing me speak.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/than

to have an influence of an environment where we grow up is something very different from hearing a person speak for an hour or even a whole day or month.

"encounter this to be so" - encounter what to be how?



00:12:44,060 --> 00:12:48,670

I can only get to you in certain areas



00:12:48,810 --> 00:12:51,600

that are acceptable. There are other areas



00:12:51,740 --> 00:12:56,780

you wonder about and hold it in abeyance, until you encounter this to be so.
In the areas of knowledge that you had already been exposed to, Jacque would reach you (you would understand) with his words. But in the areas that you are not familiarized with, you wouldn't understand, and that info would be still in your memory, but without sense to your way of organizing reality in your mind, just filed as 'something jacque mentioned on the day mm/dd', like suspended, in standby, until you encounter or find out about new info that will help you 'complete the puzzle' and make sense out of Jacques words from that day you heard him. You will find out that things are like he was saying - "encounter this to be so"

Hope it helped ; )

hugs
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Tuesday, January 28th 2014, 6:59pm

I would like to respond to #5.

5.
Maybe it's a mistake in the English transcript here. By my understanding the word "then" has to be used. He wants to make the point, that you are not able to understand what Fresco says, if you were brought up in a certain way. Whatever is in your mind because of your upbringing it is determined how you understand certain words and phrases. As an example: A vegetarian or vegan will not accept or even understand any argument you are making for eating meat, even if it is based on the scientific method. The other way around, somebody who really likes to eat meat will never listen to the arguments of a vegan, because a vegan for him is just a poor misguided guy. Another example from Fresco: If you say "I do not believe in God" at a church meeting nobody will listen to you anymore.


Here is the difference between 'then' and 'than' in English:
*Use than as a word indicating comparison.
*Use then as a word indicating time. When you want to tell about a sequence of events or are giving instructions in a step-by-step order, the word then is necessary.

The example in the video is one of comparison:
If you're brought up that way, it's very different than hearing me speak. (If you're brought up that way IS being compared to the way Fresco speaks.)
The use of 'than' here is correct.

Hope that little bit helps.
Di
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Tuesday, January 28th 2014, 7:09pm

@Di Anna:
I updated that point again, which you probably did not see in time. You can also understand it in the following way:

"If you were brought up in a way, that you cannot accept what I am saying and I speak to you, it is very different what you understand then."

Then "then" would be correct. ;)

I know the difference between "than" and "then", but here both is correct like in the video with the two women I posted above. :D
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Tuesday, January 28th 2014, 10:28pm

"If you were brought up in a way, that you cannot accept what I am saying and I speak to you, it is very different what you understand then."

I listened to the video again and I feel very sure that he is using 'than' and not 'then', since he doesn't pause after the 'than' but before. He also starts the gestural language of 'speaking out to them' before the 'than', instead of a different gesture to refer to 'then', which I imagine would be more like rotating his palms towards up and pausing the speech slightly. Does it make sense?
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  • "BottomLine" started this thread

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Wednesday, January 29th 2014, 8:49am

Thank you all for the answers :)

About the first one, that is what I didn't get - equal to what, so thanks ossi11111.

The second one is, I guess, confusing because if something goes through the outside, it is not necessarily "in" the plant but simply somewhere outside (at least that's how I see it, grammatically); through to the outside is much more understandable to me (otherwise the process itself is pretty clear)

And I'm no botanist, but strictly speaking, the growth of a plant is a very dynamic process, which looks like a physiological thing to me. Yes, the anatomy of a plant changes but it is like the end result of many physiological processes and it's about structure, not the flow itself. Thanks for the links but I always check first and read a bit on the subject before I even consider asking :) I will, however, translate it the way Jaque says it, just wanted to know if somebody makes that difference :)

The alligators: It seems something is missing there, and the average viewer would definitely wonder which one's the cause and which one the effect... I would have to think how to convey this meaning, as the literal translation does not seem like an option to me (way too confusing).

The worms:
So, it is a different way of saying "if they feed their young, the species will survive" then?


Thanks again, you were really helpful, especially on the women-babies and encounter matter :)

Number 5 is still a bit of a blur though ;)

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Wednesday, January 29th 2014, 9:49am

I listened to the video again and I feel very sure that he is using 'than' and not 'then', since he doesn't pause after the 'than' but before. He also starts the gestural language of 'speaking out to them' before the 'than', instead of a different gesture to refer to 'then', which I imagine would be more like rotating his palms towards up and pausing the speech slightly. Does it make sense?

I know what you mean. Does it make a big difference? Isn't the way I explained the content of the sentence nearly the same as you and Di Anna understand it?

"He wants to make the point, that you are not able to understand what Fresco says, if you were brought up in a certain way." (referring to myself)
vs.
"If you're brought up that way IS being compared to the way Fresco speaks." (referring to Di Anna)
That's the main statement, isn't it? It doesn't matter if he uses "then" or "than" for me. For translating it is necessary to understand the content and not to translate it word by word. :) Yes, there might be a slight difference, but our language is so mixed up, that everyone understands it different anyway as demonstrated in this thread. ;)

The worms:
So, it is a different way of saying "if they feed their young, the species will survive" then?

Yes, but not only. The main aspect for me is, that there is some mechanism that makes them feed their young. Which means, that they don't think "we have to feed our young so our species lives on ..." and also there is no "feeding the young gene". Nomada called it "action pattern".

The alligators: It seems something is missing there, and the average viewer would definitely wonder which one's the cause and which one the effect... I would have to think how to convey this meaning, as the literal translation does not seem like an option to me (way too confusing).

I'm having faith that you will do it in a good way. My Bulgarian is a little rusty, so I can't help. ;)

Number 5 is still a bit of a blur though

See the first quote of this post and wait what Di Anna and Nomada have to say to that.
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Wednesday, January 29th 2014, 3:44pm

That's the main statement, isn't it? It doesn't matter if he uses "then" or "than" for me. For translating it is necessary to understand the content and not to translate it word by word


This is surely the most important point being made here. As 'experts' in our native languages, it's up to us to do our best job to translate the 'content' of what is being said in these important messages for the understanding of those who don't understand English. On the English Team, we try hard to keep faithful to what the speaker says, but that works for us in English. In other languages, some editing may be necessary.

Good thoughtful discussions here!
((hugs))
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