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Monday, December 12th 2011, 3:24pm

Designing the Future extra verb in the sentence?

Hi,
In Designing the Future: "02_All_Things_Change.html:3 " paragraph, I find the second sentence to have two verbs; therefore, I do not know how to translate it. It could be that there is a mistake in the English or that I cannot get the structure correctly in which case please help me understand it.


"No system can remain static for long; most of the monarchies have been replaced by other forms of government and societies based on the will of the people, not kings, have evolved. "

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Monday, December 12th 2011, 3:47pm

I think there's a word missing in the sentence:

"No system can remain static for long; most of the monarchies that have been replaced by other forms of government and societies based on the will of the people, not kings, have evolved. "


Most of the systems of power that evolved from monarchies to governments where people rule have evolved.

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nomada

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Monday, December 12th 2011, 3:59pm

Addition of "that" makes the sentence grammatically correct, but the meaning would be different from what you explained:

most of the monarchies : Object of the passive verb in the actual sentence
most of the systems of power : Subject of the active verb in the explanation

I think still there is something wrong with the meaning of the sentence even adding "that", isn't it?

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Monday, December 12th 2011, 6:02pm

Nice catch, Bruno! I think it makes sense now just adding "that", but it still sounds strange because the verb is far away from its subject:

" ... most of the monarchies ... have evolved"
" ... most of the monarchies (that have been replaced by other forms of government and societies based on the will of the people, not kings) have evolved"

[main clause] most of the monarchies (subject) have evolved (active verb)
[relative clause] that (subject) have been replaced (passive verb)

Then, if the relative clause is non-defining (and I think it's the case) we should replace my brackets with commas and probably also "that" with "which".

Please, correct me if I'm wrong :)
:kiss:

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Monday, December 12th 2011, 6:21pm

I believe that 'have evolved' is extra; this is how I conclude that:

I think what we ultimately want to say is either of "monarchies have been replaced by people's-will-based societies", or "governments have evolved from monarchies to societies based of people's will"

Here, both of the verbs are used however. I think if we use "have evolved" we should also say "evolved from what" or "evolved to what". Just saying that something has evolved does not sound fine to me. So my suggestion is simply removing the "have evolved" from the actual sentence:

"most of the monarchies have been replaced by other forms of government and societies based on the will of the people, not kings. "

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Monday, December 12th 2011, 7:32pm

ah, now I see ^^ ... indeed, it seems like something is still missing also in the sentence I rewrote 8|
Anyway, sorry Mohammad: the catch was yours!! thank you for pointing this sentence out.

Hugs

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Tuesday, December 13th 2011, 8:07pm

I think what we ultimately want to say is either of "monarchies have been replaced by people's-will-based societies", or "governments have evolved from monarchies to societies based of people's will"


Hello, Mohammad. I think in order to get the correct meaning of what you mention here, all we need to do is add a comma to the original quote. How does this sound to you?

"No system can remain static for long; most of the monarchies have been replaced by other forms of government, and societies based on the will of the people, not kings, have evolved. "


I just added a comma after 'government'.

Nice discussion of how a single word or punctuation mark can change the meaning.
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Tuesday, December 13th 2011, 10:50pm

Hi Di,

That was smart!

Yes, I think adding a comma is a more appropriate way of fixing it rather than removing the "have to". Adding your comma, makes the sentence meaningful again.
Well done! :D
So I kindly ask the English proofreaders to add the missing punctuation there :)

hugs
Mohammad

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Wednesday, December 14th 2011, 5:24pm

Yeah, that comma makes sense, and here is how I understand the sentence (I'll break it down).

1. No system can remain static for long (everything is evolving and changing).
2. Most of the monarchies have been replaced by other forms of government.
3. Societies based on the will of people have evolved, as opposed to societies based on the will of kings.

2. and 3. are examples of the point made in 1. So the sentence actually contains all the above information; not either 2. or 3., but both of them.

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Wednesday, December 14th 2011, 5:38pm

Excellent, Lizzie!
Ohhhhhhhh, the magic of a comma!
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Wednesday, December 14th 2011, 8:54pm

I wonder who can change/correct the transcriptions on Pootle? Can you Lizzie? I can only on dotsub for videos.
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