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Wednesday, February 5th 2014, 1:25pm

Hi guys,
our team is proofing the translation of this video and some questions have come up (expect some more with the next parts):

1. We don't really know how to interpret this one:

00:01:36,106 --> 00:01:38,945
- You've got to listen to every word because

00:01:39,085 --> 00:01:41,152
they can't do it.


2. We are not sure about the "primitive" technology, is it the transistor that's primitive? And in this case does primitive mean "basic, primordial" or rather "undeveloped, rudimentary"?

00:02:36,871 --> 00:02:42,431
It's like taking primitive technology,

00:02:42,571 --> 00:02:44,808
way back a hundred years ago,

00:02:44,948 --> 00:02:48,680
giving them a transistor, saying 'what is it?'


3. Aaand there's still the question from a previous post of mine, about the "responding" issue, I'll just copy it here:

00:06:41,588 --> 00:06:43,591
The goal of those cities

00:06:43,731 --> 00:06:48,911
is to make things relevant to people that they respond to.


The question is who responds to whom?
One interpretation is that the city offers things to the people and the people respond to those things, and the other is that the city responds to the people. Which one do you think it is?
It goes on like this:

There's no other way. Now, people that live in the city, have many different reactions to the city: "It's my home." "My grandfather was born there." "[It's] my favorite city."

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Thursday, February 6th 2014, 6:22pm

1. referring to the primitive people he was talking about before. To formulate it in a clearer way: "Listen carefully: The primitive people cannot say how wonderful complex a watch is." or "To repeat it: The primitive people are not able to wonder, because they don't have a use for it."

2. An electric engineer from hundred years ago does only know vacuum tubes: Vacuum tube - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you show him a transistor (used today instead of vacuum tubes), he has no idea what it is or what it does.

3. Environment shapes behavior. So a city that serves the purpose to educate people and to fulfill their needs will change the people. When growing up in a city of that society the people will not think about who has the best car or with how many girls they had sex (such wants are shaped by lack of approval and therefore by a low self-image), but they will think of things relevant for the society and their life. How can the society be improved, how to make transportation saver, how to substitute an out-running resource, ...
If you want a certain behavior, you need to create the appropriate environment which shapes that behavior. When new technologies are invented, the city will change and will serve the needs of the people even more. It's interconnected. The city responds to the people and the people to the city. It is like your body. The organs work together. There is no organ, which is the first one in the row. The brain controls many functions, but without the lung it has no oxygen to control anything. The organs work together for a common purpose. That way it would be with the new cities and the people living in them.
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "ossi11111" (Feb 6th 2014, 7:11pm)


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Thursday, February 6th 2014, 7:49pm

1. referring to the primitive people he was talking about before. To formulate it in a clearer way: "Listen carefully: The primitive people cannot say how wonderful complex a watch is." or "To repeat it: The primitive people are not able to wonder, because the don't have a use for it."

So, he is simply repeating his last thought? Maybe even kind of scolding the people in front of him for not paying attention? ;)

2. An electric engineer from hundred years ago does only know vacuum tubes: Vacuum tube - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you show him a transistor (used today instead of vacuum tubes), he has no idea what it is or what it does.

That part is obvious, that they wouldn't know what a transistor is, the part about the "primitive technology" is not clear - what is this primitive technology, is it the transistor, from our point of view (from today)?

3. Environment shapes behavior. So a city that serves the purpose to educate people and to fulfill their needs will change the people. When growing up in a city of that society the people will not think about who has the best car or with how many girls they had sex (such wants are shaped by lack of approval and therefore by a low self-image), but they will think of things relevant for the society and their life. How can the society be improved, how to make transportation saver, how to substitute an out-running resource, ...
If you want a certain behavior, you need to create the appropriate environment which shapes that behavior. When new technologies are invented, the city will change and will serve the needs of the people even more. It's interconnected. The city responds to the people and the people to the city. It is like your body. The organs work together. There is no organ, which is the first one in the row. The brain controls many functions, but without the lung it has no oxygen to control anything. The organs work together for a common purpose. That way it would be with the new cities and the people living in them.

I agree this is the big picture ("respond to one another"), however I'm not sure this is meant specifically by "that they respond to", maybe somebody else would be willing to give us their interpretation as well?

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Thursday, February 6th 2014, 8:52pm

So, he is simply repeating his last thought? Maybe even kind of scolding the people in front of him for not paying attention?

Yes.

That part is obvious, that they wouldn't know what a transistor is, the part about the "primitive technology" is not clear - what is this primitive technology, is it the transistor, from our point of view (from today)?

The vacuum tube is the primitive technology for example. It is not important to which technology he is referring to exactly. From the point of view of today, every technology from 100 years ago is primitive. The transistor is not primitive today, it is widely used and common today.

I agree this is the big picture ("respond to one another"), however I'm not sure this is meant specifically by "that they respond to", maybe somebody else would be willing to give us their interpretation as well?

Today most normal men respond to fast cars, normal women to beauty products. Neither of these things are relevant. In the future people would respond to other things which are more relevant to their well-being, because they are brought up in a different way. The different environment shapes the people's responses. They will react different than today. They will not respond to how many of their family members lived in that city, but how well the certain city fullfils their needs. Somebody interested in oceanography will respond to a city in the sea and only less to a city on land.

Were these further explanations helpful to clarify it?
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Friday, February 7th 2014, 7:26am

The vacuum tube is the primitive technology for example. It is not important to which technology he is referring to exactly. From the point of view of today, every technology from 100 years ago is primitive. The transistor is not primitive today, it is widely used and common today.

Yes, I guess the transistor is not primitive like "undeveloped", but primitive has another meaning as well, and that was my question (exactly because it is widely used today, so it is a basic element). Maybe I can clarify further, is the "taking" in the sentence about taking something as an example or is it taking a piece of technology back in the past, ie take the transistor and bring it there to show them, because it is kind of a simple technology for us today, but for them it would not be something they would understand? It doesn't look to me like he's giving an example about "other" technology (vacuum tubes for example)...

Today most normal men respond to fast cars, normal women to beauty products. Neither of these things are relevant. In the future people would respond to other things which are more relevant to their well-being, because they are brought up in a different way. The different environment shapes the people's responses. They will react different than today. They will not respond to how many of their family members lived in that city, but how well the certain city fullfils their needs. Somebody interested in oceanography will respond to a city in the sea and only less to a city on land.

My thoughts exactly (even if I didn't really show them ;) )

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Friday, February 7th 2014, 8:49am

Yes, I guess the transistor is not primitive like "undeveloped", but primitive has another meaning as well, and that was my question (exactly because it is widely used today, so it is a basic element). Maybe I can clarify further, is the "taking" in the sentence about taking something as an example or is it taking a piece of technology back in the past, ie take the transistor and bring it there to show them, because it is kind of a simple technology for us today, but for them it would not be something they would understand? It doesn't look to me like he's giving an example about "other" technology (vacuum tubes for example)...

As I understand it: Fresco takes a transistor with him, uses a time machine and goes back hundred years. The engineers of the past will not understand what the transistor does, because they do not have the needed frame of reference. They can open it and analyze the used metals, but will not know it's function, no matter what they do.
Yes you can understand it in the way, that the transistor is "primitive" meaning "normal/"basic"" today. But then the idea is still the same. How exactly you translate it, only you will know. I still had no time to look into Bulgarian. :tongue:

Don't try to translate word by word, but try to translate the idea as good as possible and formulate it as a native Bulgarian would say it.
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Friday, February 7th 2014, 9:25am

I usually don't translate word by word (not possible actually, two very different languages), that is exactly why I want to understand it first. How would you translate it into your language? (I speak German)

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Friday, February 7th 2014, 11:57am

Just as a draft:

00:02:36,871 --> 00:02:42,431
It's like taking primitive technology,
Das wäre so, als zeigte man jemandem,

00:02:42,571 --> 00:02:44,808
way back a hundred years ago,
der vor hundert Jahren gelebt hat,

00:02:44,948 --> 00:02:48,680
giving them a transistor, saying 'what is it?'
einen Transistor und fragte: "Was ist das?"

I don't know how familiar you are with the German Konjunktiv (Möglichkeitsform). In a more daily language, you would translate it in the following way into German:

00:02:36,871 --> 00:02:42,431
It's like taking primitive technology,
Das wäre so, als würde man jemandem,

00:02:42,571 --> 00:02:44,808
way back a hundred years ago,
der vor hundert Jahren gelebt hat,

00:02:44,948 --> 00:02:48,680
giving them a transistor, saying 'what is it?'
einen Transistor zeigen und fragen: "Was ist das?"
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Wednesday, February 19th 2014, 9:31pm

Investigating Human Behaviour

When Jacque says:
"The goal of those cities is to make things relevant to people that they respond to."
Would it also be correct to say "the people they serve"?

Jacque Fresco - Oct 12, 2010 - Investigating Behavior (1/5)


- 6 Translation(s) | Dotsub

Minute 00:06:41,588 --> 00:06:43,591 & 00:06:43,731 --> 00:06:48,911
:bighug:

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Wednesday, February 19th 2014, 10:13pm

I think so.

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Wednesday, February 19th 2014, 11:19pm

"The goal of those cities is to make things relevant to people that they respond to."


This appears to be a classic example of the clash between spoken and written language (something that we need to be adjusting for, as necessary, to ensure clarity within our transcriptions & translations).

To wit, spoken language is much older and, by its very nature, much more fluid in delivery. When 'talking' with another person or group, spoken language consists of not only words, but also of vocal inflections and body language, with those two things providing a lot more of the contextual communication than most people realize. A speaker can bring in or expand upon a wide variety of information at any point within a conversation without overly confusing the listener, primarily because they receive instant feedback from the listener's facial expressions (a puzzled look tells the speaker to expand further on a given subject) &/or vocal interruptions requesting additional clarity. Written language lacks this feedback mechanism and the ability to provide additional contextual information in the form of body language & vocal inflection, so we must instead rely on syntax & other rulesets to organize the information in ways that simulate a logical flow of understanding, somewhat similar to a checklist of knowledge (e.g. point 1 leads to point 2 leads to point 3 leads to an initial understanding/agreement, which then allows us to move on to the next piece of info, etc.).

A major challenge emerges here, in that we not only have to write down what is being said, we also have to translate it from spoken to written language in order to make it as understandable as possible, while also preserving as much as possible of the speaker's personality (word choices), highlighting (items stressed vocally), vocal inflection implications (something said sarcastically, while snickering, etc.), train of thought (how well are they expressing what they are trying to convey?), etc.. It's quite natural to think the best approach would be to simply write down exactly what is said and leave it to the viewer to work out the rest, but I continually wonder how well this serves the greater need for clearest clarity & least distraction.


Having said all that, this specific line in the video provides a demonstration of how easy it is to conflate multiple thoughts into a less coherent statement that, left unadjusted, limits the clarity of at least one of the thoughts that the speaker was attempting to include.

For translation purposes, here is a possible re-write of the line:
The goal of those cities is to make things relevant to the people that live within them, based not on some developer's opinions, but rather based directly on what the people respond to.


I know that within the English or translation subs, we don't normally have the 'time-stamp' room to expand incoherent phrasings to the degree that I've done here, but we can certainly allow ourselves the luxury of expanding them within discussion threads like this one to make it easier for everyone to translate them in fuller context. ^^
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Thursday, February 20th 2014, 5:10am

Thank you Ray, that helps a lot (y)
:bighug:

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